That's the way the world looks at it. Many religions and many paths to God, most people think. But is that true? I mean, look at what we got: Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, and more. Which one is right? Now bear with me before jumping the gun about me lumping in Protestants and Baptists with that group.
How do we respond and deal with so many religions? Is there really that many? I say no! Because when it really comes down to it, there are only 2 kinds of religions...Works and Grace, Self and Christ. The works/self way leads to condemnation, the Christ/Grace way leads to eternal life in heaven. There may be many founders behind all those religions, but the one thing they all have in common is the false belief that works completely or partly saves them. It doesn't matter what name is behind it (including Christian), if they believe that sacraments, ordinances, charitable deeds, or good works helps get them to heaven, they don't believe the finished work of Christ is sufficient and believe in a false gospel which is no gospel at all. Only one way to be saved and go to heaven, that is through the shed blood, suffering, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for those who trust in Him with a repentant faith. May the Lord give us grace to be loving and bold to proclaim this true biblical gospel, no matter who believes the false gospels.
How do we respond and deal with so many religions? Is there really that many? I say no! Because when it really comes down to it, there are only 2 kinds of religions...Works and Grace, Self and Christ. The works/self way leads to condemnation, the Christ/Grace way leads to eternal life in heaven. There may be many founders behind all those religions, but the one thing they all have in common is the false belief that works completely or partly saves them. It doesn't matter what name is behind it (including Christian), if they believe that sacraments, ordinances, charitable deeds, or good works helps get them to heaven, they don't believe the finished work of Christ is sufficient and believe in a false gospel which is no gospel at all. Only one way to be saved and go to heaven, that is through the shed blood, suffering, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for those who trust in Him with a repentant faith. May the Lord give us grace to be loving and bold to proclaim this true biblical gospel, no matter who believes the false gospels.
Comments
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Part of the ten commandments. But the seventh day is Saturday. I cannot find a single text in the bible where it says to worship God and remember Sunday as a holy day. What do you think?
Thank you for replying again. Even though we will probably continue to disagree on the issue of the Sabbath and Sundays. Unlike many Reformed Christians (both paedo and credo baptists)I do not believe that Sunday is the sabbath. But neither do I believe that we are required to keep Saturday as the sabbath. I realize some people struggle because "keeping the sabbath" was one of the ten commandments, but there were also 603 other commandments given in the Old Covenant. The Sabbath is a ceremonial law that pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ, our sabbath rest (Heb. 4:1-11). Some people use the Book of Acts to support Saturday Sabbath worship for the church, but that was a time of transition. And the Apostle Paul and others would go to Temple on Saturdays to witness to the Jews per God's plan for him to go to them before the Gentiles on his 'missionary' journies. So that cannot be used to support the church worshiping and keeping Saturday as the sabbath. But what else sayeth the Scriptures? Col. 2:16-17 "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Rom. 14:4-6 "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God." Gal. 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Then there are verses of Scripture that shows the church gathering on Sunday: "Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight." 1Cor. 16:2 "On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come."
Rev. 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet."
Also, many Christians believe there is significance to the fact that the risen Lord appeared to the apostles on Sunday. Then there is the issue of church history. While of course it is secondary to the Holy Scriptures/Word of God, since God is sovereign, and Christ is head of the church, there is something to be said about the majority of Christians worshiping the Lord on Sunday down through the centuries. The first several centuries Christians were worshipping on either Saturday or Sunday. So it wasn't an invention by the Roman Catholic Church which by the way, was just getting started in the 4th century by Emporer Constantine's forced Christianity.
Do you want to worship on Saturday? That is between you and the Lord. But the Scriptures do not support the church being required to worship the Lord and resting on a Saturday Sabbath. Christ fulfilled and is our Sabbath rest when we are in Him by faith in Who He is and His Finished Work on the cross. The Scriptures clearly say we are not to judge another for what Day they observe. I'm not saying you are. But many in the Seventh Day Adventist Church and those of like faith do, and even go as far to say it is the mark of the beast, and/or that it is sin, and/or that people are not saved, if they do not observe Saturday as the Sabbath. Where are you in all of this my friend? Thank you...
Thor=Thursday
Sun=Sunday
Just a few. However it is enough evidence, I believe, to prove that Paul was not talking about the sabbath. Maybe I am wrong. We may never know on that text. Also I looked up that text in my bible. Check it out in several translations. It is talking about giving money. Like how there was a wooden box set in front of the temple. It suggests nothing about worship. The NIV version says: "Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up." Nothing about the sabbath. I am not attacking your issues and beliefs, I am just going through and showing you some of the validity of your texts.(It will be your turn to do the same when you
comment:-) Going on, there is evidence that this text actually supports the sabbath. Paul is talking to the church of Corinth. This church, as well as the other churches of this day, I believe were sabbath keepers. Paul askes them to set aside their money at the beginning of the week. He says that the reason for this so that when he comes the collections will "NOT YET" be taken. That places hid arrival at Saturday. From this logic, we can see that he may have been preaching at this church. But whether he did or not does not matter. For it talking about money and collections. One could make the case that this was tithe, but it says that it wasa collection. Now for a text of my own.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
All the commandments I believe. The reason being? Jesus loves us. If we did not have a day set aside for rest after He rose, than we would all be stressed out. He knows that we needed a day to worship Him and RELAX. There is a site that I would REALLY like you to visit. If you have any questions in your mind, this site will answer them. Here it is: sabbathtruth.com. Explore, Pray. I will be doing the same. I will await your response. My sincere thanks for commenting back,
-Justin.
Thor=Thursday
Sun=Sunday
Just a few. However it is enough evidence, I believe, to prove that Paul was not talking about the sabbath. Maybe I am wrong. We may never know on that text. Also I looked up that text in my bible. Check it out in several translations. It is talking about giving money. Like how there was a wooden box set in front of the temple. It suggests nothing about worship. The NIV version says: "Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up." Nothing about the sabbath
First, your explanation of the word "shadow of things to come." With all due respect, your explanation is very weak, and has nothing to do with the passage. It looks like it is just something you 'may' be holding onto so as not to have to worry about what the passage really says. I used to do that years ago with the word foreknow/foreknew, by believing that it meant foresight/God knowing who would believe and who wouldn't. Until I was challenged to take a closer look at the meaning of the word and what the verse says (Rom. 8:29), and how it is used in the passage in context. I encourage you to do the same. I agree with you that the Rom. 12 and Gal. 4 passages are not [as] clear, but this Col. 2 passage is. The word Shadow comes from the Greek word 'skia.' It means shadow/shade/adumbration. If you look up adumbration in the old Websters dictionary it says:
1. The act of making a shadow or faint resemblance.
2. A faint sketch; an imperfect representation of a thing.
3. In heraldry, the shadow only of a figure, outlined, and painted of a color darker than the field.
The first and second definitions aptly describe what a shadow in the Old Testament is. You can also see how the words are used in Heb. 8:5 & 10:1. Plus, it seems that you may have ignored or forgotten Col.2:16 which again says: Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath" {ESV- Glad you're not a KJV Only guy ;-)}.
Then there is your use of Jn. 14:15. This much beloved passage, and one of my many favorite verses that says "If you love Me keep my commandments." But for you to use that in defense of your position is broad and vague in my opinion. In context here it is referring to Jesus' commandments. Jesus who became God incarnate about 2000 years ago (always God, but not man until then). Jesus never commanded men to keep the sabbath. Again, that command is no where repeated in the New Testament. While you and others may make the argument that Jesus is God and therefore it is referring to all the Old Testament commandments as well, in the context and as the Son of Man, I don't think that will fit there. If Jesus had made the command to continue to keep the sabbath (which He had plenty of opportunty to do, especially when talking to His Disciples after He rose from the dead and appeared to them on Sunday, and knew that the church would start worshipping Him on Sundays), then I would say that your use of Jn. 14:15 would have a leg to stand on, so to speak :-).
But allow me to move on to my concern. If it is just clarification that I need, we should be able to resolve this in one exchange of posts. But if your use of this word is meant in the way that it is often used today, there is a concern. You said: "We believe that every religion in the world will be in heaven." If your use of the word 'religion' means 'non Christian' religions, then we have a much serious issue than that of the Saturday Sabbath vs. the Sunday Lord's Day. Perhaps you are just using it in the sense of Christian denominations? If so, that is better, but it still could be problematic depending on what you mean with that. There is no salvation and going to Heaven outside of repentant faith in the Person and Finished Work of Christ [alone]. That leaves out non Christian religions, and any [professing] Christian denomination or group that believes works and/or self contributes in any degree to their salvation, whether Roman Catholic, Protestant, Baptist[ic], or Seventh Day Adventist. So if you'd be so kind, I would like to get this straightened out before continuing our discussion about the Saturday-Sunday issue.
Thanks Justin!
-Justin
The word of God is clear that there is no other way to heaven other than by grace through faith alone in the Person and Work of Christ alone: Acts 4:12; Jn. 14:6; 1Cor. 15:3-4; Jn. 3:16-18,36; 5:24; Rom. 3:1-12,23; 5:8; 6:23; 10:9-10; Eph. 2:1-10; and many many more.
It also looks like you are now saying that Jesus was/is not God. You said: "So either God is seperate from Jesus, or the two do not settle with each other. And you must also realize that Jesus rose after He was dead. If He was dead and was God, who raised Him?" I hope I'm somehow misunderstanding. Even the SDA believe that Jesus is 'God the Incarnate Son.' But more importantly the word of God says that Jesus is God in numerous places: Jn. 1:1-14; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:1-3; 1Tim. 3:16; Jn. 8:58-59; 1Jn. 5:20; Jn. 20:28; and many more. You also said: "and we do not know if Jesus was all knowing then and/or if He was actually an incarnate of God. And so, from this we could make the argument that Jesus may not have known that the church would turn to worshiping on sabbath." Since the word of God says Jesus is God incarnate that should take care of it. But some argue that since Jesus emptied Himself (kenosis in the Greek in Phlp.2) that He did not know. But the word of God says otherwise. Here are just 3 examples: Jn.1:48-49 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." Jn. 2:24-25 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man. Jn. 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him."
Justin, I have to be honest. It looks like you are denying some of the basics of Christ and His word. If so, you believe a false gospel and false Christ. Do you like the SDA not believe in a literal eternal punishment and Lake of Fire as well? And then there is the thing with Ellen White that I forgot about. She is no more a Prophet than Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, or Mohammed were. All of them are false Prophets. The Bible is the word of God, and final authority for God's people. I know you didn't bring up Ellen White, but I am :-). Do you agree with the SDA regarding her?
Justin, with these extra differences that are very important and crucial in evidencing whether a person is saved and heaven bound, it is just too much to deal with first, on this Blog, and secondly, just you and I period. I just encourage you to read God's word regarding these matters (including what I gave you regarding worshipping on Sunday. You're still in error regarding the 'shadow.' It was written to the Colossians and Hebrews of that day, and refers to the O.T issues mentioned being a shadow until Christ's first coming, not now until Christ's second coming and eternity)and the Scriptures I have shared with you. Jesus is God and all-knowing, and salvation is only by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Those who are not born from above and have this faith by grace will spend an eternity in conscious punishment described as the Lake of Fire.
May God be pleased to open your eyes to these very important and fundamental biblical truths, as He has for me and many others. Thanks!
I had not made my Blog rounds soon enough to catch this thread while it was in progress. However, here are some thoughts as it seems to wind down.
First, I believe that if nothing else we have seen a sufficient sampling of both sides of the discussion regarding the Sabbath issue. This is neither the first nor the last time that this topic will be discussed, and it seems fair to say that while neither side has been able to give a full defense of his position (blog space being limited), a fair, representative sampling of the arguments has been presented. For that, we thank both Bret and Justin.
While I will not waste time rehashing the previous discussions, I would like to point out a couple of things.
1). I am admittedly not studied up on SDA doctrines, but the position placing so much weight on the Ten Commandments appears to be a bit inconsistent. Let me explain… It appears that Justin is stating that when Jesus came to fulfill the Law, that (contrary to the points that Bret made) it did not materially change the requirements given in what we call The Ten Commandments for believers who are now under grace. It also seems that Justin would minimize the relationship between the Ten Commandments and Jewish ceremonial law elsewhere in the OT. (Justin, if I misunderstand your points here, it is not on purpose. Sometimes it is hard to follow arguments in a blog post.) However, aside from the biblical argumentation that Bret provided, this is an inconsistent point to make. If you are going to claim that in fulfilling the law, Christ did not change (for lack of a better word) the requirements of the Sabbath listed in the Ten Commandments, then you CANNOT separate the definition of “remembering the Sabbath” to anything other then what it was understood as by the Hebrews at that time. That is to say, based on Justin’s posts, the Sabbath is primarily “a day to worship Him and RELAX.” I do not doubt that Justin’s view of the Sabbath is more comprehensive then that, but I imagine that the above definition is fairly accurate for a simple summary. But that is NOT what the Jews would have thought of when they were told to “remember the Sabbath”. Below is a list of some, but by no means all, things that are included in the definition of Remembering the Sabbath:
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. (Exodus 31:14-15)
--Notice that “remembering the Sabbath,” by definition, includes putting those to death who work on the seventh day.
"3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." (Exodus 35:3)
--Notice that “remembering the Sabbath,” by definition, includes not making a fire in your home on the Sabbath. Those of us with fireplaces and candles would fall short on this one.
10 "For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.
12 "Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest and the slave born in your household, and the alien as well, may be refreshed. (Exodus 23:10)
--Notice that in this explanation of what it is to “remember the Sabbath,” you are to include your land and resources every seventh year. To truly “remember the Sabbath” today the way that the law intended in the Old Testament, a business owner would have to give all of his profits every seventh year to the poor.
These examples are just to show that if you are going to hold that Bret is wrong in all of the reasoning he gave, both biblically and logically, then you CANNOT use your own definition of what it means to remember the Sabbath. You must use God’s definition. One could try and deny this, but it is apparent that the Jews back then fully understood and believed this. After all, in Numbers 15:32-36 you will see them stoning a man to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. Notice that in Exodus 20, the only item that is listed as expounding upon what it is to “remember the Sabbath” is to not “labor and do all your work.” By adding the day Christians worship to the definition of “remembering the Sabbath” one must already admit that what is in the Ten Commandments regarding the Sabbath is NOT all-inclusive of how God defines the Sabbath. Therefore, it is inconsistent to “add” the day we worship to the definition of “remembering the Sabbath” and not also add every letter of the Jewish law that actually defines what the Sabbath is. When God gives us a term and then defines it throughout the entire Old Testament, we cannot just use the parts of the definition that we like the most. We have to take it all or leave it all.
My second point is concerning the Colossians chapter 2 passages. I will set aside the discussion of the meaning of “shadow” for all those who wish to review all of the posts above between Bret and Justin. I would just like to posit the idea that when the Apostle Paul wrote that chapter was for a REASON. He was not addressing other wholly unrelated topics and then decided to mention the Sabbath in verse 16 as an after-thought. It is reasonable to assume that Paul had heard arguments or received questions from those whom he knew would be reading his letter. Think of it… Somebody in the church believes that when Jesus came He fulfilled the requirements of the letter of the law regarding the Sabbath. Perhaps this person was a new Christian and was meeting with the other early Christians on Sunday. Then one of the Jewish Christians (who we know from other letters had a hard time letting go of aspects of the Jewish ceremonial law after Christ came; such as circumcision) started telling the early Christians that they were wrong and that they would be judged if they continued to worship on Sunday. How appropriate is Paul’s reply when he says in Colossians 2:16, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” I don’t think that Paul’s words could have any more relevance then if he was to post a comment directly himself as a part of this blog (I’m not sure what internet connect speed they can get in Heaven… better then mine, I’m certain…). Plus, if you read ALL of chapter 2, there is not any way for an unbiased observer to make a case for the “requirements” of keeping the Sabbath on Saturday. The language in that chapter dealing with circumcision and tradition makes it clear that that chapter is directly relevant to the topic at hand. I would like to close this point by quoting verses 13 and 14, to make my point further and to show what the context was that the Sabbath was mentioned in. Paul makes his point in no uncertain terms (pay close attention to verse 14):
“13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross."
My final point has no real relevance to the other two. I would just like to observe that I find it interesting that a “discussion” about observing the Sabbath would come up as the result of a post from Bret regarding the nature of two different classifications of religious systems: those that are by works and those that are by grace alone through faith alone. While Justin has stated that he does not believe one needs to observe the Sabbath on Saturday to be saved (and I believe him), it appears that many of those in the SDA church DO believe that. It seems that there could have been no better way to illustrate the point of Bret’s original post then to watch the discussion that followed.
In Him,
Tyson
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
You may say, well that was the Holy Spirit. Nope, it could not have been. Here is how Luke puts it:
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
So the Son was on Earth, the Holy Spirit descended in the from of a dove, And the Father was up in heaven. We know this because the voice said, "Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
The voice said son, which means that the voice was the father. And who is the father? God. So I hope I have cleared up that matter. You are right. There is know way to heaven except through Christ and faith. But, does that mean we are to forget the ten commandments? I think not. I am not saying that works get you to heaven. But again, you are judged on how you lived your life. As a christian, our actions reflect Christ. If we do not keep the ten commandments and follows the bible, then our actions will be a poor example of Christ. In your text:
Jn.1:48-49 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."
It says, "You are the Son of God".
So from that text, we can see that it supports the trinity claim. Jesus may have known everything, but you do not have texts that support that. Neither do you have a text that supports the fact that Jesus knew the church would turn to Sun. as sabbath. I actually do ont believe in an eternal lake of fire and eternal punishment. And as for Ellen White, I do agree with her. The only reason is because unlike the other prophets, she is in harmony with the bible. You are right Tyson, much has been said on this issues. Again, I agree with Bret, in the fact that this issue may just be to big to discuss on a blog, and with just two debaters. I have found great pleasure in debating with you and sharing my beliefs. I am sure you feel the same way. I shall continue to read and comment oin your blog and hope that we may again debate on another subject. I will take your advice and will continue to search the scriptures. But I also implore you to go to sabbathtruth.com if you have not already. I consider this case closed. God bless to all,
-CT(Justin)
Justin: I appreciate how you conduct yourself on the Blog. I hope that you will re-read your posts closely to see how I came to some of the conclusions I did :-).
I gald you agree that salvation is by grace through faith. But that applies whether someone heard the gospel or not. The word of God has a myriad of verses of Scripture showing the sovereignty, omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience of God. With that, god will always maske sure that someone who is meant to be saved, will hear the gospel from somebody. In closing though, Rom. 1 & 2 clerly show us that creation and conscience make everyone without excuse. To God Be The Glory! Bret