This is from a church that an old friend of mine started going to in southern Maryland...
We believe that a believer should abstain from worldly entertainment such as poker playing cards, gambling, sports, television, video games, movies, comic books, going to the mall and dancing.
We believe that bishops and deacons should be male, married, have children, and have their house in order (1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9)
The following beliefs are not believed by all members of King James Baptist Church but are held by a sizable group of people including the Pastor:
We believe that the head veil is a command of Scripture for women. The head veil is a symbol of the headship and therefore the submission required by women (1 Corinthians 11:1-16), covers nakedness (Isaiah 47:1-3), and aids in separation from the world (2 Corinthians 6:14-18, Romans 12:1-2).
We believe that Christians should not be part of the military, should not fight in wars, and should not defend himself when persecuted for Jesus Christ. Defense of one's self and his family for reasons not related to the Christian testimony is the moral obligation of the men of the house (Matthew 5:7,9,21-22,38-44; Matthew 6:14; Matthew 10:16; Mark 11:25-26; Luke 6:27-38; Luke 17:3-4; John 13:34-35; John 18:36; Romans 12:10,14,17-21; Romans 13:8-10; 1 Corinthians 9:12; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 4:32; Ephesians 6:11-17; Philippians 2:3-4; Colossians 3:12-13; 1 Thessalonians 5:15; 1 Timothy 3:3; 2 Timothy 2:3-4,24; 2 Timothy 3:3; Titus 1:7; James 3:16,18; James 5:6; 1 Peter 3:8-9; 1 John 3:13-16; 1 John 4:20-21; Revelation 21:8; Proverbs 6:16-17; 1 Samuel 24:17; 1 Chronicles 22:8; 2 Corinthians 6:14- military service is yoking one's self with unbelievers; the Christian is to be a persecuted people who suffers wrong- Matthew 5:10-12; Luke 6:22-23; Acts 5:41; 2 Corinthians 7:4; 2 Timothy 3:12; Hebrews 11:25; 1 Peter 2:19; 1 Peter 3:14,17; 1 Peter 4:14) We believe that a believer is a pilgrim and an ambassador on the earth. A believer's home and country is Heaven. Therefore, a believer has no right to be in a political occupation or to vote. The powers that be are ordained of God. Therefore, we must try to change our temporary dwelling place on earth, not by politics, but by winning souls for Jesus Christ.
We believe that a believer should abstain from worldly entertainment such as poker playing cards, gambling, sports, television, video games, movies, comic books, going to the mall and dancing.
We believe that bishops and deacons should be male, married, have children, and have their house in order (1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9)
The following beliefs are not believed by all members of King James Baptist Church but are held by a sizable group of people including the Pastor:
We believe that the head veil is a command of Scripture for women. The head veil is a symbol of the headship and therefore the submission required by women (1 Corinthians 11:1-16), covers nakedness (Isaiah 47:1-3), and aids in separation from the world (2 Corinthians 6:14-18, Romans 12:1-2).
We believe that Christians should not be part of the military, should not fight in wars, and should not defend himself when persecuted for Jesus Christ. Defense of one's self and his family for reasons not related to the Christian testimony is the moral obligation of the men of the house (Matthew 5:7,9,21-22,38-44; Matthew 6:14; Matthew 10:16; Mark 11:25-26; Luke 6:27-38; Luke 17:3-4; John 13:34-35; John 18:36; Romans 12:10,14,17-21; Romans 13:8-10; 1 Corinthians 9:12; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 4:32; Ephesians 6:11-17; Philippians 2:3-4; Colossians 3:12-13; 1 Thessalonians 5:15; 1 Timothy 3:3; 2 Timothy 2:3-4,24; 2 Timothy 3:3; Titus 1:7; James 3:16,18; James 5:6; 1 Peter 3:8-9; 1 John 3:13-16; 1 John 4:20-21; Revelation 21:8; Proverbs 6:16-17; 1 Samuel 24:17; 1 Chronicles 22:8; 2 Corinthians 6:14- military service is yoking one's self with unbelievers; the Christian is to be a persecuted people who suffers wrong- Matthew 5:10-12; Luke 6:22-23; Acts 5:41; 2 Corinthians 7:4; 2 Timothy 3:12; Hebrews 11:25; 1 Peter 2:19; 1 Peter 3:14,17; 1 Peter 4:14) We believe that a believer is a pilgrim and an ambassador on the earth. A believer's home and country is Heaven. Therefore, a believer has no right to be in a political occupation or to vote. The powers that be are ordained of God. Therefore, we must try to change our temporary dwelling place on earth, not by politics, but by winning souls for Jesus Christ.
Comments
Dave
Thank you for your responses. I hope you both read my Blogs Posts on what legalism is and isn't as well. Yes there were some things that they said that I didn't copy and paste that I agreed with them on (modest aparrel and courting). Just because they are legalistic in some areas doesn't mean they or anyone else are in all areas. If you would like the URL of the church website, let me know here or by e-mail. Without going in too much detail because of readers of my Blog from outside of the church, I hope we all agree that there is a vast difference between what this particular church is doing (mandating dos and don'ts in their statement of faith that ARE NOT dealt with in Scripture) and trying to deal with an area of concern by discussing it and possibly preaching/teaching about it from the pulpit or writing an article, that IS in Scripture. The issue I'm concerned about is in the word of God specifically. Saying that a Christian shouldn't vote, be in the military, fight wars, play poker, have a televison, go to any movies at all, play any video games at all, read any comic books at all, go to the mall, listen to any secular music at all (that one wasn't copied and pasted), when they are not even addressed in God's word, is a far cry from and not even close to being the same as my concern which is addressed in God's word :-). It is the Pastor's responsibility as servant-undershepard to deal with various issues of concern in the local church through the means available to him. I would even go as far as to say, that while I do not think churches should mandate in the way this church did through an official statement of faith, that pastors do have the right to address those concerns from the pupit (I have met that pastor a couple of times years ago before he became a pastor. Typical Ind. Fund. Bapt.)even though we would disagree with him because they are commandments of men, not of God. My area of concern is not a commandment of men because it is in the word of God. And so when it is all said and done after continued counsel, prayer, and study of God's word, as a pastor-teacher Elder, I have the responsibility and right to deal with it :-).
Dave, you also said: "...but because we love Him and want to serve Him, not because we feel obligated to live a righteous life." I think we follow Christ's rules/obey His commandments for both reasons. Yes we do it because we love Him, but WE DO have an obligation to obey Him in all things. It is not legalism to also obey Him out of obligation. Why are some so concerned about this?His commandments are not options or suggestions, amen? All of mankind is "obligated" to obey God. We know that the unregenerate cannot please God in that way, but they are still responsible. Christians have another motivation. We also do it because we love Christ (Jn. 14:15), but we are not any less obligated. Whether we love Christ the way we should (and none of us do love him perfectly and consistantly)or not we are still obligated to obey Him. The purpose of Christ's statement in Jn.14:15 and a couple of other Scriptures is not to say that you only obey Me out of love, but to say that our love for Him cannot be seperated from obeying His commandments. Indeed, if a professing Christian's life is not characterized by obeying Christ, he is proving that he doesn't love Him and that he may not even be saved (Mt. 7:21-23;1Jn.2:4;3:9).
Just a clarification my brother. It could be that I misunderstood you, or you didn't phrase it the way you intended.
I appreciate the responses and discussion brethren. Keep 'em coming :-).
I noticed for myself this past week, the thought of modest dress especially in the Church service drew me to the creature and not the Creator, I was judging by a set of standards that was implied to me by this
"Modest apparel" and I was determining whether or not the congregation dress accordingly.
Now am I wrong or should we all be focused on the Creator, and not on the creature, quite frankly before the last Sunday's service I did not look at our congregation, my mind was not focused on these guidelines and I spent my Sundays like any other Sunday focusing on Him.
I know I am being frank about this, but I had to stop this Sunday and say "Stop looking at them and judging them according to what they are wearing" In my mind I stopped and began worshipping Him instead. Quite frankly I don't want to go back to judging in that manner again. I would rather have our congregation dress in a fashion that they see fit, than to judge them for it. Instruct them yes, show them the Word of God, and then leave it at that.
Is this wrong to think this way? Please reply. Dave
If you take what you are saying (have them dress in a fashion they see fit)to the fullest possible extent of what could happen, then we would never say anything even if a woman for example did come into the church (whether a member or not) in a halter top and short-shorts. Of course this applies to anything during the worship service.
I understand what you are getting at, and there is some truth in what you are saying. We are not to go into church with the idea of "I'm going to take a close look at what each and every person is going to where." But since modest aparrel is mentioned in the word of God, and most of us are blessed with eyes to see, if we happen to see someone dressed immodestly and they attend regularly we would deal with it biblically. Notice this past week my emphasis on Christians dealing with the issue PRIVATELY [IF] someone genuinely believes another is dressing immodestly. And of course my original intent was if it is to be dealt with, that I would by instructing them by one means or another from the word of God. That seems to receive opposition at first :-). Also, I think as time goes on that the Lord will enable you, as He has for me and others to be able to focus on the worship of our awesome sovereign and loving God through His word and song, even if there is someone dressed immodestly. But see, this is the crux of the whole issue, immodest apparrel does take people's attention off the Lord and put it on such person. This is why it is most important in the worship service. There is no room for compromise on this issue (not saying you are, speaking generally). If we are concerned about worshipping the Lord in spirit and truth, the modesty issue is a part of it. It's just a question of what it is, how to deal with it, and when to deal with. Let's keep this in prayer...
Dave
Soli Deo Gloria...
Stacey:
Thank you for posting on the blog. I agree with 'most' of what you said. The only part that I would disagree with is your number 3, and the second sentence of your last paragraph about clothes that are fitting being acceptable. If clothes that are fitting are still 'tight' but not 'super tight' and therefore conform the body and show the figure, it is still a problem. Inside and outside the church it could still lead another to more easily look upon them and therefore lust in the heart. Inside the church assembly it could still take the attention of people off of the Lord, and put it onto the one dressing immodestly, which is the original intent of the admonition by Paul to Timothy (1Tim. 2:9-10).
All:
This is what I see the problems to be regarding this issue in the body of Christ:
1. Worship in TRUTH as well as spirit. We say this is what we want to do. Give Him all the worship He is due including trying to please Him in all things. But for some, this stops short of including dressing modestly so we keep any possible attention from being drawn to us and it all be given to the LORD.
2. Convenience and comfort, which is really selfishness.
3. For some is it is out and out rebellion. Some only want to worship the Lord as long as it doesn't involve any sacrifice on their part. As long as such worship does not cut against the grain in their lives they'll do it. But that [kind] of worship is not total worship and devotion to the Lord. Yes, we are to offer the scrifice of praise and joy. But God also says He prefers obedience over sacrifice. Our worship to Him includes pleasing and obey Him and not wanting to do anything that could hinder anyone's worship to the Lord, seven days a week, not just on the Lord's Day.
4. Situational ethics. Some believe that what is immodest in one area of life, is not in others. An example of this could be that an outfit my be considered immdest in church, but not outside of the church. Another example could be an outfit being immodest outside of the church normally but not if it is at the beach or public swimming pool. But whether we are talking about modest apparrel or anything else in the word of God, we will find nothing in Scripture supporting this. If you do, please share it with me. Regardless of the issue, if it is sin, it is sin in all situations. We have to be careful not to put entertainment and recreation first and foremost in our lives.
5. An overreaction to the concern of being legalistic. There is no doubt that legalism is sin. I would say that it is not any less sin that disobeying God, because it is adding to His word. But what I have seen over the years, especially among those that embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, are some Christians that are so concerned about being legalistic, that they consider something legalistic that isn't (I already dealt with that in my Blog). Some of these same people are 'more' concerned about being legalistic than they are about obey God. Again, we can't seperate obedience to God from worship of God. As I said earlier, Christians are not less obligated to obey God. We are motivated by our love for an appreciation of Christ. And of course we do not do it to save us or keep us saved. But God's laws and commands do not become less obigatory for God's people. Yes we need to have a balance. But we all need have the same desire and concern to obey God that we have to not be legalistic.
6. Throwing the baby out with the bath water :-). Some have a tendency to not want to even deal with the modesty issue at all because there is nothing further said about 'what is immodest.' But if that was the case, then it would not be mentioned in the word of God at all. Perhaps now would be a good time to look at the verse again: "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness" (1Tim. 2:9-10). The NASB rightly uses the word 'proper clothing' instead of 'modest aparrel' based on the Greek. But the KJV uses the literal word 'shamefacedness' instead of 'modestly' based on the Greek. The way Christian women are to adorn themselves are supposed to be as such that they are doing with shamefacedness and modesty. Showing off the figure, showing cleavage, showing the thighs etc. does not fulfill attitude descroved here. Notice the attitude and the outward adorning are directly connected here. We cannot just say "it is the attitude that counts" if such attitude is not reflected outwardly.
7. Love for the world and the things in the world that includes the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life (1Jn. 2:15-17).
8. Parents teaching their children. We know that there are scores of Scripture dealing with this. But parents teaching their children to dress properly is part of this. Sometimes some parents think it is 'cute' to dress them immodestly. Some fathers actually like to show off their daughters when they have nice figures. Sometimes parents try to do their part and it is a constant struggle because of the pressures of the world in schools and with friends and neighbors. Parents also need to start when their children are young. Again some parents tend to not want to deal with proper clothing when their kids are young because of the 'cute' outfits. But then, when they get older and the parents try to get them to dress more appropriately, there is resistance. Start dressing them modestly while they are toddlers. And as long as the children are under the guidance and support of their parents (a completely different subject that I think most of the body of Christ doesn't deal with), they should submit to the Lord and their parents when it comes to dressing properly.
9. The church's responsibility. We have already discussed this somewhat, so I won't go into too much detail. It is the responsibility of the Pastor to deal with this topic from the pulpit when it comes up in the particular text, by direct application, or if there is a particular need to address it in the church. But it just doesn't stop there. I think it was Dave that said: "instruct them with the word of God, and leave it at that." While it was probably not your intent, if we follow that way of doing things, then there would never be church discipline for anything." Dealing with it privately is the first step before it actually becomes a possible church disciple issue. But if we use the example I used ealier that would clearly be immodest aparrel, and the person wouldn't stop, it would become a church discipline issue, not just mention 'the issue' from the pulpit and leave it that. There will also be times that perhaps one of the other ladies in the church would just be able to encourage them privately. So it could be dealt with from the pulpit, or an individual person privately. Just depends on the nature and degree of the problem, and how much it has spread, as to how it is dealt with. But again, the 1Tim.2 passage is dealing with it from a pastoral/church perspective first and foremost, and how it affects out attention to and worship of the Lord. We cannot just ignore it.
10. My motives. This has been the biggest response in my Blog. There is no doubt that this is a hard and emotional issue. I do not think less of anyone that may fall into this issue. I love each and every one of of my brothers and sisters in Christ in our church, as well as out of our church. But I love the Lord first and foremost. If I love the Lord Jesus Christ, then I will love His church. This is His church, He is the head. His church is to be holy, blameless, and seperated from the world. We were created to love, adore, honor, praise, and worship Him in both spirit and truth. As a child of God, that is what I'm responsible for; as a husband and father, my responsibility extends to my family; as a pastor my responsibilty extends to Christ's church; to deal with anything that hinders that worship or anything that that would not make us as holy and seperate as we should as a local church of Jesus Christ. My reason for sharing about that legalistic church was not only to show that they are, but also to show you that dealing with a 'biblical' issue such as modest aparrel is not legalism because it is biblical for one, and because I'm not talking about listing a bunch of rules and guidlelines in our church bylaws as they have.
Thank you for the excellent discussion. But a discussion that I hope will bring honor and glory to God for 'all of us' as we seek His wisdom and will through prayer AND His word. Soli Deo Gloria...
My name is Matthew Drayer and I attend King James Baptist Church. The church that is being discussed in this blog is my church and I am the one who has, for the most part, put together the website. My goal of this post is to clear up some misunderstandings about the church.
Part of the statement of faith that I have put together was posted. Please do not misunderstand the statement of faith. These are NOT rules which we must abide by in order to be in the church. These beliefs were added to the statement of faith mainly so that others can know what our church is like and what we believe. Some people looking for a church may be interested in these topics and the stand the church takes on them.
My church displays a lot of liberty and freedom. Please do not misunderstand our beliefs as rules. There are some churches like a local Eastern Mennonite church that is very strict. They have all these rules which one must follow. You are basically looked down upon if you do not hold to these rules. There is a family that was sorta put out of the church because the man grew a beard and they were homeschooling. The church is nothing like that! The church is divided on some issues. Heart convictions, not rules, are the reason people do what they do.
The following was posted: "Yes there were some things that they said that I didn't copy and paste that I agreed with them on (modest aparrel and courting). Just because they are legalistic in some areas doesn't mean they or anyone else are in all areas." The things that you agree with are not legalistic yet the things you don't agree with are? Please explain this to me. Please understand. This is simply what we believe. If you do not hold to these views, you are welcome in the church. Many in the church do not agree on these issues. That is why the following is in the statement of faith: "The following beliefs are not believed by all members of King James Baptist Church but are held by a sizable group of people including the Pastor:". There are people who do not agree with everything laid out in the statement of faith that I would consider members because they are part of the church.
As far as these issues being addressed in God's word, some of us believe they are. For example, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not watch television" but it does command us to set no wicked thing before our eyes. Just to let you know, there are people in the church who watch television.
I hope this clears up any misinformation. Please feel free to write back. If you have a question, ask. Thank you very much.
If you find a group with stronger convictions than yours, be thankful that in these days of compromise, and gross violations in the area of "liberty" that there are other believers out there who are very conscientious about their testimony and the way their faith is perceived in society.
I have been greatly helped in my Christian walk by this insight. I have stronger stands on some issues then some of my brethren and looser on others. As long as I keep the main thing (Christ and His glory) the main thing, I have a nice relationship with my brethren. One should not use his talents, like having a Blog, and use it to sow strife amongst brethren. Some people are just looking for someone to give them a platform for attack. Some food for thought:
"By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:35
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." I John 4:7,8
"[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
" Phil. 2:3
My two cents worth,
Ben Smith said: "One should not use his talents, like having a Blog, and use it to sow strife amongst brethren. Some people are just looking for someone to give them a platform for attack." and "Some food for thought:
"By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:35."
When there is a difference of understasnding between brethren over biblical doctrine and issues, why do some construe that as sowing strife and/or not loving the brethren? Was Paul being unloving when He rebuked Peter?
Now I'm asking this because of Ben's comments. It not only doesn't cause strife, but it was also not intended as so. As I may have mentionen in an earlier response to this thread, I posted this without referencing what particular church it came from. It is because someone from said church chose to tell others from the same church, that these people got involved. There is a way to deal with different biblical understandings without personally attacking the person behind it. This is what our goal should be when we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered unto the saints. Soli Deo Gloria!